Which JVM to use under Windows?

In article <77203e2e3162e@uwe>, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe> wrote:
>Lew wrote:
>>Almond wrote:
>>>> Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
>>>> in this case?
>
>Many people have stressed the benefits of using the
>latest production JDK to develop with. I agree with that
>basic advice, but I recall you said earlier you were
>developing for 1.3+.
>
>If you are writing code intended to be run on an earlier
>JVM, it is important to use the -bootclasspath (as well
>as the other cross-compilation options) to ensure the
>code is compatible with any earlier VM (even 1.5).
>
>The -bootclasspath is significant to mention, in that
>it requires you to have the runtime jar of that Java
>version available to compile codes against.
>
>The point that I am getting to is that while it is
>best to develop with the latest JDK, it is also necessary
>to have *access* to the version of JRE (or JDK) that
>is the minimum that the code targets.
>
>>> Usually depends on what you want to achieve. Normally I stick with a version
>>> that is one step smaller.
>
>I compile some code for 1.1 (legacy test applets,
>designed to inform the unfortunate end user that
>"The insecure, unsupported, obsolete MSVM must
>be replaced to (do the interesting thing they came
>to the page for) - also you might want to get rid of it,
>just to protect your PC.",


>1.3 (the introduction of
>Java Sound into the J2SE), 1.4 when Swing actually
>became stable enough to be widely useful, 1.5 (most
>users) and 1.6 (just can't wait to have that, ..., and if
>you want to it, get yourself the latest VM).
>
>>Not really a problem with the Sun JVMs. Stick with the current version (Java
>>6 as of this writing).
>>
>>>> Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.
>
>I would. The 3810 build of the MSVM ('Java' 1.1.4)
>will happily show the root path of the JRE in an
>untrusted applet. The Symantec 1.1.5 JRE will
>not, nor will any Sun JRE.

I am talking about Windows environment at the moment.

Do you happen to know which exact file is the JVM
for Windows? (I have downloaded jdk 6 as of february 2007.
File jdk-6-windows-i586.exe).
Do you happen to know if it has JVM?
Sorry, but there is just too many things that are goning
on at the moment, and I find it a pain on the neck to find
things as released by Sun. I even spent nearly half an hour
last night trying to find the JVM for Windows on Sun's site
with no luck.

Do you happen to know the exact link to it?

I am running Windows XP SP2. Do not recall what I had to do
to install JVM or it was already provided. I lost my main
drive with several partions that had all these things.
Need to dig up from backups.

>That is the only 'security difference' that I have noticed
>between the 3810 (the safest ever of the MSVM variants)
>and other JRE's, but then, I did not go purposefully looking,
>that is just one thing I noticed.
>
>>> I'd recommend you to stay away from MS JVM. Not because it's M$ but because
>>> it's way too old and doesn't support new features of Java specification
>>> (i.e., version 1.4+)
>>
>>I recommend you not call it a JVM. Didn't MS lose a lawsuit brought by Sun
>>because MS "Java" wasn't?
>
>IANAL, but 'yes'. I refer to it simply as the MSVM.
>
>>And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice with
>
>>only months left.

Well, the target platform is Windows at the moment.
We have to live with what we have.

>yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
>be coded to support 1.4, will also support 1.5 or
>1.6, why would you bother?

>Lew, if the difference between releasing a 1.4 app.,
>and a 1.5 app., were 10 lines of code, and a
>compilation option, would you *still* recommend
>releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
>'1.5+'? (..just curious, really)

>* This could be a huge issue, of course, if a later
>Java version provides a core functionality of the
>app..

I do not even understand what they mean by
"not supported" or "obsolete".

When I build an app, I like to build it for the
oldest working version possible. In Windows
environment, I have no control of which JVM/MVM
is installed on end user's box.

But the app is coded so it is guaranteed to run
under ANY version of JVM/MVM. Some issues like
threads and synchronization did work out just
fine. User interface is working perfectly well
by staying within AWT alone and not using swing.
There is simply no need for it and there are
too many variations out there, creating all sorts
of compatibility problems.

So, when someone says "obsolete", does it mean
that the app, built to not utilize anything
fancier than jdk 1.3, is somehow not going to
work on a target platform?

Do they mean that if you get the latest JVM,
your app may not even run?
:--}

Did they take out AWT functionality in their
current versions? Because if they did, that
would probably be the last nail in the Sun's
coffin.

The issue is extreme. Microsoft does not
support swing, and, from what I recall,
it only supports jdk 1.3.

Which means it is a deadly battle between
Sun, Microsoft, Borland and others.

The development environments are totally
different. The apps in Sun/Borland worldview
can not even be built as an .exe file to
be run under windows.

Visual Studio does build the executables.
And that is EXACTLY what Windows users
know about. Typing "java -bunch of flags ..."
from the Start-> Run dialog is simply insane
in the Windows world view.

Microsoft does not support CLASSPATH and
they explicity state that fact.

But what all the developers have to do
to make sure their apps can run on 90+%
of all the computers out there?

Can you provide some references on this issue?

So, some of the players in the Java world
would have to vanish. Microsoft does not
fight the loosing battles. They'll lock
their horns and will pull out the joker card
at the end, which is over a generation of
development work in all sorts of languages,
technologies, development environment,
operating system, networking, distributed
processing, and all sorts of other things.

Do you think Sun can match that card?
How?

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

In article <neudnTHVjN1tDVDbnZ2dnUVZ_sqinZ2d@comcast.com>, Lew
<lew@lewscanon.com> wrote:
>Lew wrote:
>>> And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice
> with
>>> only months left.
>
>Andrew Thompson wrote:
>> yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
>> be coded to support 1.4, will also support 1.5 or
>> 1.6, why would you bother?
>>
>> Lew, if the difference between releasing a 1.4 app.,
>> and a 1.5 app., were 10 lines of code, and a
>> compilation option, would you *still* recommend
>> releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
>> '1.5+'? (..just curious, really)
>
>I recommend using Java 6 wherever feasible. The definition of "feasible" is
>situational. I develop for 1.4 at work.
>
>Home users have no reason to stay at an old version of Java. I would
>definitely recommend to the home users that they upgrade.

And this is about the stickiest point in all this.
"Home users" are using Windows.

The developers are using Windows development environments,
be it Microsoft, Borland, etc.

The Visual Studio development environment does not
support even swing.
About the only trully compatible thing they support is AWT.

So, when you say: "i recomend to upgdate",
what do you mean by that?

To upgrade what?

Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
standard .exe file tha can be double clicked on to run,
is Visual Studio.

I do not believe there is such a notion in Borland or
Sun environment.

They just locked their horns with Microsoft and use
all these mega law suits to prove some point.
To whom?

To MICROSOFT?

Are they out of their mind?

Instead of working together and working out something
that works for everybody, they do just about all they
can to make sure THEIR view of the Universe is the
only one that has a validity?

What do you expect to happen to Java as such as a result?
Steve Jobs already made his point on Java as such by
saying:

"No one is developing for Java any longer.
It is too fat, too heavy weight, too much burden".

This is not the exact quote.
But don't undermine the very meaning and significance
of it.

When people of his caliber say things like this,
it is basically a death verdict.

Microsoft is just way too big to even bother about
Sun. Even though Sun can make them hurt a lil with
all those mega-sucking lawsuits.

And what does it achieve at the end?

Well, the licence to use JVM is extended to Microsoft,
and that is about all they need.

And you know how much Microsoft cares about JVM?
Guess.

They'll have their own version of MVM and it will
seamlessly support the standard approach users
are familiar with for at least a generation,
and that is:

The end product, the app, is a directly executable
program, just like any other.

It is delivered as .exe file and not a bunch
of class files, all sorts of flags, CLASSPATH
specification, and you name it.

The end user does not need to bother with ANY
of that stuff.

And that is about the most critical issue,
as it addresses of the very underlying philosophy
of java run time environment.

By simply double clicking on the app, user
expects it to run. Just about ALL he cares for
is to see the .exe file.

No paths, no flags, no directory structures.
NOTHING.

The whole idea as created, specified and stubbornly
supported by Sun, is flawed.

Do they expect the end user to switch to Unix/Linux?
How many generations is it going to take to achive
that "goal", if ever?

Are these people insane?

>As a developer, I find the differences between 1.4 and 5 to be significant -
>huge, really. I hate having to go back to 1.4. If there's any way to
>baseline at Java 5+, I insist on it.

This is another interesting issue.

You see, people are used to the "latest and gratest" hype.
It is like a fasion of sorts.
Unless you have the latest jeans, you can't go out on
the street.
Why?

It became an obscession. And people are FORCED to get
the "latest and gratest", and most of them do not even
realize there is no benefit in all this fashion madness.

There is no really need for all these supersex machines.
Most of my apps have value not because of sexy buttons
and all other jazz. They have value because of their
functionality. Unless you develop some trans-galactic
distributed system, with real time updates on global
situation, in vast majority of cases, this version
desease does not deliver the good they promised.

Secondly, switching versions and getting obscessed
with obsoletion, what are you saying really?

That 2 + 2 is no longer 4?
That Add operation in your CPU is no longer "supported"?
Because you replaced it with trans-galactic orgasm?

Is hammer a hammer?
Is screwdriver a screwdriver?

Do you obsolete bread one day?

What is this madness?

Well, simple enough, so that you are constantly kept
sucked in, forever shelling out thousands of bux on
never ending updates to their supersex machines.

But the net gain is hardly in the range of 10%
in VAST majority of applications.

What kind of applications do you use anyway?
What kind of applications categories DO exist to date?

Amazingly, it hasn't change much for at least a generation.
It is editors, networking apps, databases, graphic, sound
applications and a few others.
That constitutes VAST majority of apps out there.

Even thouse RSS feeds are no miracle of ANY kind.

>Java has to have the slowest adoption curve of any community. Java 5 is two
>and a half years old already, hardly a spring chicken in IT terms. Are people
>still playing the same video games introduced for Xmas of '04? Much less '02,
>when 1.4 came out?
>
>If a home user has Java at all, why would they use a five-year-old version?
>Wouldn't it be straightforward for them to upgrade to at /least/ 5?

As far as I can see, Sun has MUCH deeper problems right now.

They have to decide to either support the MS worldview,
in whichever way they can manage it, or lock the horns
with Microsoft and decide to overturn the world.

The whole idea of JVM is flawed, just as Steve Jobbs
pointed out. It is the exact same idea as Pascal P machine.
Millions upon millions were wasted trying to manufacture
the harware chips that can run P code directly.

And the end result is?

Anybory heard of P-machine?

Again, unless a virtual macnine becomes a hardare chip,
users do not even know of, Java has as much of a chance
to be widely adopted by vast majority of mere mortals,
as for the hell to get frozen.

Whatever will be left of Sun, Microsof will by out
for a penny on a dollar, if they even bother.
Because it is worthless.

There isn't a SINGLE thing that is so revolutionary
in Java, that is not already known and exists on all
sorts of levels, from kernel up.

Yes, Java has its own flavor and some of those ideas
do make a lot of sense.

But do you in your clear mind believe that Java
is going to win over C++ and MFC type of things?

If with a simpliest app, you need to load at least
10 megs of fat, just to do 2 + 2, then what does it
tell you?

Well, it tells ME that the eintire approach is
FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. Things like on-demand loading
are known since at least a generation ago.

Things like libraries and DLLs in Microsoft's wordview
exist for as long.

Synchronization exists since pre-Unix times.

And the list has barely begun.

>At least the enterprise folks can manufacture an excuse - though oddly many of
>them are going ahead with last year's MS Office Suite and this year's .NET
>framework while moaning that it's too soon to upgrade from '02's (or even
>'00's) version of Java.

I, personaly, start shivering when any manufacturer
releases a new version. Because it is GUARANTEED
to be about 5 times fatter, and 5 times slower,
and that is if you are lucky.

Sometimes I have to go to some older versions of things,
and it always amazes me how much faster it runs and how
much leaner it is. It looks like for a single coca cola
can they put in their "new" version, you have to pay
for a tank, or even Rolls Royce.

What kind of "architectures" are these?

Microsoft is very deliberate on making sure that the next
version will be 5 times as fat and 5 times as slow.

Just compare Vista to XP.
You can't even start the stupid box unless you have 1 gig
of RAM just to boot.

And what have they given you for that?

A few more buttons?
That support a never ending race to hell?
With all those games, that program young children's
minds with the ideas of violence, blood, murder,
destruction?

Then what do you expect to get by the time that
child grows up? In his subconscious, he is a mature
murder, thief, conman, greedy politicion, utterly
dishonest entity, that does not even feel anything
when it pushes the REAL red button of nukelar
(that is how top brass pronounces it) anihilation.

Because he was programmed to have this worldview
from the 5 year old level.

Just to have a few more red buttons of anihilation,
you need to go to version 6?

Of what?

What do you expect to achieve with version 6 that
I can not achieve with much earlier version?

What kind of apps you write?
What do they do?

A trans-galactic tarot reading and predict the
next step in mankinds development?

Do you want me to tell you those steps, without
even using computer beyond using my good ole newsreader,
that i tried to change to something "latest and greatest"
for at least 5 times? And still, after seeing all those
mazes of buttons and "functionality", which is fundamentally
incorrect in the very architecture, I still go back to this
10 years old newsreader.

Can anyone recomend something better?
Which one?
I even promise to download that bloatware
and even try to run it, and even more than once,
just to make sure i did not miss any of those
"great" "features".

In combination with NewsMaestro, i am in the best shape
i need to be.

Good luck on the road to you know what...

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

In article <1187895482.055945.208890@x35g2000prf.googlegroups .com>, Hunter
Gratzner <a24900@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On Aug 23, 3:17 am, alm...@brothers.orgy (Almond) wrote:
>>
>> Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.
>>
>> NewsMaestro download
> page:http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356
>
>So you are the NewsMaestro spammer who spammed this and 200 other
>newsgroups with NewsMaestro advertising
>
>Please go away.

Listen, I do have some respect to some people on this group.

But what seems to be the problem with one simple thread?

One more time:

About the best strategy, BY FAR, is this:

If you don't like it,
do not read it,
do not follow up on it,
and just forget about it.

Trust me, these are the words directly from the horse's mouth,
Russ Allbery, the maintainer of INN server,
and a holder of a golden key to the entire Big-8
hierarchy, of which your group is a part.

Unlesss you are inherently sick.


--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

Hunter Gratzner wrote:
> On Aug 23, 3:17 am, alm...@brothers.orgy (Almond) wrote:
>>
>> Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.
>>
>> NewsMaestro download
>> page:http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356
>
> So you are the NewsMaestro spammer who spammed this and 200 other
> newsgroups with NewsMaestro advertising

Also the infamous psycho Nukleus.
>
> Please go away.
>
Yes.

On Aug 23, 10:20 pm, "Jeff Higgins" <oohigg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Also the infamous psycho Nukleus.

Nukleus? Nukleus you say? Wait a second. This Nukleus? (I deleted all
names)

--------------------------------------------------------------
Path: g2news2.google.com!news2.google.com!news.germany.c om!
news2.volia.net!news.ntu-kpi.kiev.ua!news.uran.net.ua!carrier.kiev.ua!
news.te.net.ua!sewer-output
From: nukl...@invalid.addr (nukleus)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Usenet Nazis hall of shame nomination
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:12:38 GMT
Organization: Land of Biorobots
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <eqjno4$8gi$1@toster.te.net.ua>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d157-75.tenet.odessa.ua
X-Trace: toster.te.net.ua 1171087942 8722 195.138.75.157 (10 Feb 2007
06:12:22 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@te.net.ua
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:12:22 +0000 (UTC)
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01

Wouldo ya like to vote,
just one more time?

[deleted], da herr fuehrer nomination,
also goes as Da Father of Brainwashing,
and His Royal Sucky Highness

[deleted]

[deleted], da master of perversion

[deleted], sitting on a donkey, only backwards,
with a tin foil cylinder on his head
and a paper sword in his hand,
thinking where could he find a fresh, 6 years old, pedo boy.

[deleted], sucks better than a black hole

[deleted], da protector of da law and order

[deleted]

[deleted], da accumulator of news.* "moderator" labels

[deleted] a pigmey with a spear, running after AI gods

[deleted], da mouth foamin', blood boilin'

[deleted], da king of da master-bation club

[deleted], da Brookline bloated brotherhood of
"slaughter them all" type

[deleted], da reincarnate ass licker of da white wasp's ass

[deleted], she doesn't quite make it to nazis,
but looks good fer nazi ass lickers

[deleted], that's [deleted]'s level. They go togheter as a package

Da pinky red ass, there were quite a few of those animals,
come in bulk, in assorted sizes of their output hole

add yer own two pennies below,
or above,
or insert,
or be proud of yerself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 23, 10:09 pm, alm...@brothers.orgy (Almond) aka nukleus wrote:
> Listen,

I don't listen to spammers. They are notorious liars.

> But what seems to be the problem with one simple thread?

See? Here we go. You spammed more than 30+ groups with more than 200+
messages. So much for "one simple thread".

http://groups.google.com/groups/prof...6MV9oWg-kRAx3w

Please go away liar.

Almond wrote:
...
>And this is about the stickiest point in all this.
>"Home users" are using Windows.

I don't see why. Java is X-plat.

>The Visual Studio ...

Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
IDE? (Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)

As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
you specify as the JDK.

>...development environment does not
>support even swing.

(shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.

>Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
>standard .exe file ..

Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
Windows support? I am guessing the GUI could be coded
faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities) than
coded in Java (which typically does not open itself as
well to the D-n-D design).

>..tha can be double clicked on to run,
>is Visual Studio.

Web start supports desktop icons and menu items.
Just as easy for the end user to launch, and
supported X-plat.

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...neral/200708/1

In article <772611dae030a@uwe>, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe> wrote:
>Almond wrote:
>...
>>And this is about the stickiest point in all this.
>>"Home users" are using Windows.

>I don't see why.

Just look at statistics.
You can post all day long on this group,
but you know how much of a dent it is going to make?

>Java is X-plat.

Not in my experience. I did check things out using
different development environments, etc.,
and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",
on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
using Borland's "proprietary" layouts, and going to
Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
dot on some object in the source file, and it gives
you all the possible alternatives, Microsoft's
"proprietary" version of some stupid string operation
is going to show up first, and, if you are not careful,
you won't be able to build that app on Borland or Sun.

Simple as that. I am not even talking about all those
variations on the JVM/MVM or whatever the latest hype
is.

>>The Visual Studio ...
>
>Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
>IDE?

What?
This is something new to me.
Can you outline some specifics?

>(Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)

Which runs perfectly well in my case.

>As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
>you specify as the JDK.

I can tell you one thing. I have been using the
Microsoft's environment from the day one, and I have
used all sorts of other environments, be it Linux
or Unix worldview.

And what I found is that the Microsoft's wordlview
is about the most flexible, most powerfult thing
I know of.

I can open up 2 instances of the same environment,
one using Java and the other one using C++, and
i can do miracles with it. Set the breakpoints
and modify the source code on the fly. It has
built-in support for version control system,
and it is a seamless operation.

I can generate a deliverable packages with a simple
mouse click, and I can do all sorts of other things
i need to do.

Can you match that with ANY other environment?
(I assume we are talking about Windows OS).

I worked with all possible variations of Unix and
Linux, and what I found is that they are clunky.
In linux, they can not even have a good enough
graphics capabilities to display the fonts so they
do not look ugly. The whole user interface is
simply childish and immature.
All the X stuff is on the level of a generation ago.
All their KDEs, Gnomes, and all that are simply
funny compared to what is available under Windows.

Last time I used Linux, about a month ago,
I simply had a headache because the whole thing
was simply ugly, immature and childish.

I could not even connect to the Internet.
Spent more than an hour trying to see their
"latest and greatest" version of doing the exact
same thing I used before, and that lame thing,
for some strange reason, would refuse to recognize
things for what they are.

Is THAT what you are proposing me?

Btw, do any of you know exactly the Linux way
of building a Java app and what is the "best"
environment? I looked at their java aspect,
and found some Gava, Mava, and Miawa, as a
front end to their C++ compiler.

I did not have much time to spend on it,
but now it is quickly becoming a top priority item.
I need to verify one app to be buildable and runnable
under Linux. One guy did it in one day, but he happens
to be an arrogant, obnoxious idiot, who likes to take
things for free, but is not willing to GIVE anything
or tell others how to make it work, and I don't have
much time to spend on this at the moment.

So, any assistance in Linux worldview or any pointers
would be appreciated.

>>...development environment does not
>>support even swing.
>
>(shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.

Which Notepad?
Under which OS?

>>Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
>>standard .exe file ..

>Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
>Windows support?

What are other alternatives that will allow me to work
as comfortably as I do now and have all the power and
flexibility I have at the moment?

> I am guessing the GUI could be coded
>faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities)

Sorry, what is D-n-D?
:--}

> than
>coded in Java (which typically does not open itself as
>well to the D-n-D design).

This is what I have and there is nothing I can do
about at the moment and I simply have not time
to start the whole game from top.

>>..that can be double clicked on to run,
>>is Visual Studio.

>Web start supports desktop icons and menu items.
>Just as easy for the end user to launch, and
>supported X-plat.

I need a professional develpment environment
where everything is integrated and seamless.
I can just double click on some HTML file
and it opens up the full fledged HTML editor
with support for style sheets and you name it.
If I want to change something in a style sheet,
I simply select an item and it expands all the
choices I have. That is what I need.
I simply have to time or interest to switch my
brain to a totally different, "customized", or
"proprietary" world view.

That is the way it is.

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

Almond wrote:

................

> Not in my experience. I did check things out using
> different development environments, etc.,
> and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
> to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",
> on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
> using Borland's "proprietary" layouts, and going to
> Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
> dot on some object in the source file, and it gives
> you all the possible alternatives, Microsoft's
> "proprietary" version of some stupid string operation
> is going to show up first, and, if you are not careful,
> you won't be able to build that app on Borland or Sun.

Yes. And hence the VM spec (for how a typical JVM should work). I am reading
more of it atm.


>>>The Visual Studio ...
>>
>>Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
>>IDE?
>
> What?
> This is something new to me.
> Can you outline some specifics?
>
>>(Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)
>
> Which runs perfectly well in my case.
>
>>As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
>>you specify as the JDK.
>
> I can tell you one thing. I have been using the
> Microsoft's environment from the day one, and I have
> used all sorts of other environments, be it Linux
> or Unix worldview.

What is worldview ?

> And what I found is that the Microsoft's wordlview
> is about the most flexible, most powerfult thing
> I know of.
>
> I can open up 2 instances of the same environment,
> one using Java and the other one using C++, and
> i can do miracles with it. Set the breakpoints
> and modify the source code on the fly. It has
> built-in support for version control system,
> and it is a seamless operation.

Why do that when you can use one Eclipse session to do both C++ and Java AND
be able to debug both of them at the same time.


> I can generate a deliverable packages with a simple
> mouse click, and I can do all sorts of other things
> i need to do.

You just have to find the right tools
http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/
http://autopackage.org/
BTW, You seem to be coming from M$ World (which I did unknowingly as well).
GUI based packaging might be easier for you but it's not the standard in
GNU/Linux world (although it could be in near future). Theres everyones
favorite RPM, Apt, Slapt, dpkg...... lots of them.


> Can you match that with ANY other environment?
> (I assume we are talking about Windows OS).
>
> I worked with all possible variations of Unix and
> Linux, and what I found is that they are clunky.
> In linux, they can not even have a good enough
> graphics capabilities to display the fonts so they
> do not look ugly. The whole user interface is
> simply childish and immature.
> All the X stuff is on the level of a generation ago.
> All their KDEs, Gnomes, and all that are simply
> funny compared to what is available under Windows.

Probably but IMO only morons would say that. Graphics in Linux is *not* good
as M$ Windows not due to the inability of the programmers working on them.
Its because the Graphics card manufacturers would not open up the Graphics
card's specification openly and release them. If there is no specification
(like Java VM spec), how would you expect to implement the functionality?
Then you'd have to invent a whole new different Programming language.

> Last time I used Linux, about a month ago,
> I simply had a headache because the whole thing
> was simply ugly, immature and childish.

It's not. It could probably be because you had minor glitch and also because
maybe you are little impatient. With Linux, it's free world where if you
abide by your ability to think, you can actually fairly make progress very
fast. If you prefer beautification of desktop environment,try
Compiz/Beryl/Compiz+Beryl.

> I could not even connect to the Internet.
> Spent more than an hour trying to see their
> "latest and greatest" version of doing the exact
> same thing I used before, and that lame thing,
> for some strange reason, would refuse to recognize
> things for what they are.

As I said earlier, it's not because of Linux's fault. It's mostly one's
inability to work to make the system do the right thing. The OS doesn't own
you; You own the OS (there's a very deep meaning to this of which I am sure
lot of Linux user know already but one wouldn't have to be a Linux user to
know it)

> Is THAT what you are proposing me?
>
> Btw, do any of you know exactly the Linux way
> of building a Java app and what is the "best"
> environment? I looked at their java aspect,
> and found some Gava, Mava, and Miawa, as a
> front end to their C++ compiler.

There is no one "best" way of doing things. You might like one way, the
others might like their way. Having said that, there's -
1) Eclipse+java+javac 2) VI+javac+java 3) Emacs+javac+java
More available at http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Devtools/ides.html
If the editor is written in Java like Eclipse, it will run on all platform
that supports Java.

> I did not have much time to spend on it,
> but now it is quickly becoming a top priority item.
> I need to verify one app to be buildable and runnable
> under Linux. One guy did it in one day, but he happens
> to be an arrogant, obnoxious idiot, who likes to take
> things for free, but is not willing to GIVE anything
> or tell others how to make it work, and I don't have
> much time to spend on this at the moment.

Not uncommon. Lot of the Linux people including myself try to be friendly as
much as possible but I have heard/talked with many like the ones you
mentioned above. It's IMO to do with ego. Nothing to do with Linux or Unix
or for that matter any OSS OS. You can't generalise people by the OS they
use. You can only get fair idea, nothing much.

> So, any assistance in Linux worldview or any pointers
> would be appreciated.

Bumppp.. What is worldview (RPM?, one version per machine?)

>>>...development environment does not
>>>support even swing.
.......
>
> I need a professional develpment environment
> where everything is integrated and seamless.
> I can just double click on some HTML file
> and it opens up the full fledged HTML editor
> with support for style sheets and you name it.
> If I want to change something in a style sheet,
> I simply select an item and it expands all the
> choices I have. That is what I need.
> I simply have to time or interest to switch my
> brain to a totally different, "customized", or
> "proprietary" world view.

Get Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org), then Google around for plugins that
will let you do lot of stuffs like CSS editing, XML editing, HTML editing,
C++/Perl/Python/Java/Ruby/<some_obscure_ones> coding.

Probably not Smalltalk? ;O

> That is the way it is.

Not it's not.


--
Cheers,
Ishwor Gurung
/* humpty dumpty */

Almond wrote:
> In article <772611dae030a@uwe>, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe> wrote:
>
>> Java is X-plat.
>
> Not in my experience.

It simply means that Sun provide JVMs for a variety of platforms.
Windows, Solaris, Linux. Other OS vendors provide JRE and JDK for their
operating systems e.g. Apple provide a Sun based JRE and JDK for Mac OS/X.

It is true that you can write non-portable code in Java and that even
portable code often needs careful testing on target platforms. However
that does not mean that Java is not "cross platform".

> I did check things out using
> different development environments, etc.,
> and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
> to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",

Proprietary and cross-platform are not mutually exclusive.

> on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
> using Borland's "proprietary" layouts,

<http://www.codegear.com/downloads/free/jbuilder> says
Platform "Windows, Mac OS X, Linux".


> and going to
> Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
> dot on some object in the source file,

Microsoft's J++ or J# or whatever it's called now, is not Java(tm).
<http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1818346&SiteID=1>
1.1.4 is long obsolete, I think it dates from 1997, current Java is 1.6.

>
>>> The Visual Studio ...
>> Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
>> IDE?
>
> What?
> This is something new to me.
> Can you outline some specifics?
>

I imagine Andrew is referring to the fact that many years ago Microsoft
dropped support for Java(tm) <http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/faq.mspx>

AIUI Microsoft then concentrated on providing tools for migrating apps
from Java to .NET. <http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/java/migrate/>


>>> ...development environment does not
>>> support even swing.
>> (shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.
>
> Which Notepad?
> Under which OS?

I think Andrew is referring to the fact that you can write Swing apps in
any text editor.

Most Java learners seem to quickly progress to Netbeans, Eclipse or some
other Java IDE.


>>> Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
>>> standard .exe file

http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html

The .exe files produced by .NET compilers are not like the .exe files
produced by C compilers of old. They are much like the .jar files
produced by Java compilers - they won't execute on Windows XP (say)
unless the appropriate runtime environment is first installed.

You can produce "standard .exe" files from Java in a number of ways but
it is apparent that many Java developers feel that doing so is in
contradiction to the main reasons for using Java in the first place.


>
>> Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
>> Windows support?
>
> What are other alternatives that will allow me to work
> as comfortably as I do now and have all the power and
> flexibility I have at the moment?

If you're happy with Visual Studio for J++ you should be even happier
with Visual Studio for C#.

Have you tried Eclipse, Netbeans or any other Java IDE recently?


>> I am guessing the GUI could be coded
>> faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities)
>
> Sorry, what is D-n-D?

Drag-and-Drop.



> This is what I have and there is nothing I can do
> about at the moment and I simply have not time
> to start the whole game from top.
....
> I need a professional develpment environment

I suspect almost all professional Java developers are using up-to-date
Java IDEs and JVMs. AIUI Microsoft long ago discontinued support for
professional Java developers.

If you are comfortable in the Microsoft world and want to stay there, I
expect you should probably be following Microsoft's advice and migrating
to .NET and C#

If you are developing Java applications professionally, In my view you
would almost certainly be better off using a *current* Java development
toolkit.

"RedGrittyBrick" <RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo> wrote in message
news:luadnR3TEuup01LbnZ2dnUVZ8sCsnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> Microsoft's J++ or J# or whatever it's called now, is not Java(tm).

In case anyone cares:

J++ dates back to before the MS/Sun Java lawsuit. It's ancient, obsolete,
and wholly unsupported.

J# is one of the languages that can be used with the .NET framework. It's
neither obsolete nor unsupported, and can be developed with the current
version of Visual Studio. It's only relationship to J++ is one of "cultural
compatibility".

As RGB points out, neither is Java.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:51:43 -0400, Lew <lew@lewscanon.com> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>
>If a home user has Java at all, why would they use a five-year-old version?
>Wouldn't it be straightforward for them to upgrade to at /least/ 5?

Acrobat users have the latest version because Acrobat nags them to
upgrade whenever there is an upgrade.

Java does not even have a "check for updates" on the app menu.
The location of where you get the update is lesser known than most
state secrets.

Server side folks don't like updates happening unless scheduled. Sun
has considered only their interests.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

"Roedy Green" <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:a1muc35hglmrkjkhp75e9b5e9832tornbe@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:51:43 -0400, Lew <lew@lewscanon.com> wrote,
> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>
>>If a home user has Java at all, why would they use a five-year-old
>>version?
>>Wouldn't it be straightforward for them to upgrade to at /least/ 5?
>
> Acrobat users have the latest version because Acrobat nags them to
> upgrade whenever there is an upgrade.
>
> Java does not even have a "check for updates" on the app menu.
> The location of where you get the update is lesser known than most
> state secrets.

I get nagged about Java updates all the tine.

http://www.processlibrary.com/directory/files/jusched

In article <46ce61e8_1@news.chariot.net.au>, Ishwor Gurung <ishwor@gmail.com> wrote:
>Almond wrote:

I have read your entire article.
Thanks for your help and pointers.
I do not have time to get into specifics at the moment.

But thanks for your feedback.

>................
>
>> Not in my experience. I did check things out using
>> different development environments, etc.,
>> and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
>> to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",
>> on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
>> using Borland's "proprietary" layouts, and going to
>> Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
>> dot on some object in the source file, and it gives
>> you all the possible alternatives, Microsoft's
>> "proprietary" version of some stupid string operation
>> is going to show up first, and, if you are not careful,
>> you won't be able to build that app on Borland or Sun.
>
>Yes. And hence the VM spec (for how a typical JVM should work). I am reading
>more of it atm.
>
>
>>>>The Visual Studio ...
>>>
>>>Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
>>>IDE?
>>
>> What?
>> This is something new to me.
>> Can you outline some specifics?
>>
>>>(Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)
>>
>> Which runs perfectly well in my case.
>>
>>>As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
>>>you specify as the JDK.
>>
>> I can tell you one thing. I have been using the
>> Microsoft's environment from the day one, and I have
>> used all sorts of other environments, be it Linux
>> or Unix worldview.
>
>What is worldview ?
>
>> And what I found is that the Microsoft's wordlview
>> is about the most flexible, most powerfult thing
>> I know of.
>>
>> I can open up 2 instances of the same environment,
>> one using Java and the other one using C++, and
>> i can do miracles with it. Set the breakpoints
>> and modify the source code on the fly. It has
>> built-in support for version control system,
>> and it is a seamless operation.
>
>Why do that when you can use one Eclipse session to do both C++ and Java AND
>be able to debug both of them at the same time.
>
>
>> I can generate a deliverable packages with a simple
>> mouse click, and I can do all sorts of other things
>> i need to do.
>
>You just have to find the right tools
>http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/
>http://autopackage.org/
>BTW, You seem to be coming from M$ World (which I did unknowingly as well).
>GUI based packaging might be easier for you but it's not the standard in
>GNU/Linux world (although it could be in near future). Theres everyones
>favorite RPM, Apt, Slapt, dpkg...... lots of them.
>
>
>> Can you match that with ANY other environment?
>> (I assume we are talking about Windows OS).
>>
>> I worked with all possible variations of Unix and
>> Linux, and what I found is that they are clunky.
>> In linux, they can not even have a good enough
>> graphics capabilities to display the fonts so they
>> do not look ugly. The whole user interface is
>> simply childish and immature.
>> All the X stuff is on the level of a generation ago.
>> All their KDEs, Gnomes, and all that are simply
>> funny compared to what is available under Windows.
>
>Probably but IMO only morons would say that. Graphics in Linux is *not* good
>as M$ Windows not due to the inability of the programmers working on them.
>Its because the Graphics card manufacturers would not open up the Graphics
>card's specification openly and release them. If there is no specification
>(like Java VM spec), how would you expect to implement the functionality?
>Then you'd have to invent a whole new different Programming language.
>
>> Last time I used Linux, about a month ago,
>> I simply had a headache because the whole thing
>> was simply ugly, immature and childish.
>
>It's not. It could probably be because you had minor glitch and also because
>maybe you are little impatient. With Linux, it's free world where if you
>abide by your ability to think, you can actually fairly make progress very
>fast. If you prefer beautification of desktop environment,try
>Compiz/Beryl/Compiz+Beryl.
>
>> I could not even connect to the Internet.
>> Spent more than an hour trying to see their
>> "latest and greatest" version of doing the exact
>> same thing I used before, and that lame thing,
>> for some strange reason, would refuse to recognize
>> things for what they are.
>
>As I said earlier, it's not because of Linux's fault. It's mostly one's
>inability to work to make the system do the right thing. The OS doesn't own
>you; You own the OS (there's a very deep meaning to this of which I am sure
>lot of Linux user know already but one wouldn't have to be a Linux user to
>know it)
>
>> Is THAT what you are proposing me?
>>
>> Btw, do any of you know exactly the Linux way
>> of building a Java app and what is the "best"
>> environment? I looked at their java aspect,
>> and found some Gava, Mava, and Miawa, as a
>> front end to their C++ compiler.
>
>There is no one "best" way of doing things. You might like one way, the
>others might like their way. Having said that, there's -
>1) Eclipse+java+javac 2) VI+javac+java 3) Emacs+javac+java
>More available at http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Devtools/ides.html
>If the editor is written in Java like Eclipse, it will run on all platform
>that supports Java.
>
>> I did not have much time to spend on it,
>> but now it is quickly becoming a top priority item.
>> I need to verify one app to be buildable and runnable
>> under Linux. One guy did it in one day, but he happens
>> to be an arrogant, obnoxious idiot, who likes to take
>> things for free, but is not willing to GIVE anything
>> or tell others how to make it work, and I don't have
>> much time to spend on this at the moment.
>
>Not uncommon. Lot of the Linux people including myself try to be friendly as
>much as possible but I have heard/talked with many like the ones you
>mentioned above. It's IMO to do with ego. Nothing to do with Linux or Unix
>or for that matter any OSS OS. You can't generalise people by the OS they
>use. You can only get fair idea, nothing much.
>
>> So, any assistance in Linux worldview or any pointers
>> would be appreciated.
>
>Bumppp.. What is worldview (RPM?, one version per machine?)
>
>>>>...development environment does not
>>>>support even swing.
>.......
>>
>> I need a professional develpment environment
>> where everything is integrated and seamless.
>> I can just double click on some HTML file
>> and it opens up the full fledged HTML editor
>> with support for style sheets and you name it.
>> If I want to change something in a style sheet,
>> I simply select an item and it expands all the
>> choices I have. That is what I need.
>> I simply have to time or interest to switch my
>> brain to a totally different, "customized", or
>> "proprietary" world view.
>
>Get Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org), then Google around for plugins that
>will let you do lot of stuffs like CSS editing, XML editing, HTML editing,
>C++/Perl/Python/Java/Ruby/<some_obscure_ones> coding.
>
>Probably not Smalltalk? ;O
>
>> That is the way it is.
>
>Not it's not.
>
>

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

In article <772611dae030a@uwe>, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe> wrote:
>Almond wrote:
>...
>>And this is about the stickiest point in all this.
>>"Home users" are using Windows.
>
>I don't see why. Java is X-plat.

Well, there is even a problem running an app on a SINGLE
platform, Windows.

The problem is this:

The program is produced in a standard .exe file, and any
exe file is assumed to be an executable that you can run
by simply double clicking on it.

The program runs fine here, but some people say it does not
run for them. So far, the issue seems to have with class
definition files, whatever those are.

Does anyone here know about these "class definition" files
under windows and what needs to be done to make the program
run under ANY version of Windows?

I have spent hours trying to find the info on it with no luck.
I get hundreds of pages of dense crap, but not a single page
on what I need to know. The documentation system was completely
rewritten and it is about the worst documentation since the
beginning of Windows times. Even table of contents does not work
the way it worked as far as 10 years back, where you could do
a search and then push the previous button and in the contents
frame it would put you exactly into the related category.

>>The Visual Studio ...

>Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
>IDE? (Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)

Because it should run on ANY version of windows going
back to win98 and with ANY version of JVM.

>As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
>you specify as the JDK.

Easy to say that.

>>...development environment does not
>>support even swing.
>
>(shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.
>
>>Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
>>standard .exe file ..
>
>Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
>Windows support?

I did not say this is ALL i want. The program is reported
to run under Linux. And it should run under any operating
system where you can install a JVM.

>I am guessing the GUI could be coded
>faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities) than
>coded in Java (which typically does not open itself as
>well to the D-n-D design).

GUI worked out perfectly well. Every single program window
or a dialog box is modeless and can be resized, maximized
or minimized. Any and all dialogs can be opened simultaneously
without any harm. Even if you start one of processors, you
can still have any of your dialogs opened. Even if you
modify some parameters while processors are running, with
the next item, it will use your new parameters. Even
when you have all the dialogs opened and a number of processors
running, you can still save your configuration on the fly.

I haven't seen a single program out there for ANY money
that can do that.

>>..that can be double clicked on to run,
>>is Visual Studio.

>Web start supports desktop icons and menu items.
>Just as easy for the end user to launch, and
>supported X-plat.

About the last thing in the world i need right now
is to have yet another bowl of vax to deal with,
with its own quirks and problems. My hands are already
full with what I have.



--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...roup_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.