No Jobs for new computer guys :-(

Hi all,
I was wondering if there are other guys out there who are a year or two outof university and still looking for software type jobs? I have a degree and masters in IT and still I find that companies are only hiring experiencedguys with 5+ years even though the company advertises for "graduates"!
Where are good countries to get jobs in? I'm in Ireland and really bad now!:-(
Cheer,
K.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:35:00 AM UTC-7, Kevin Doyle wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering if there are other guys out there who are a year or two out of university and still looking for software type jobs? I have a degree and masters in IT and still I find that companies are only hiring experienced guys with 5+ years even though the company advertises for "graduates"!
>
> Where are good countries to get jobs in? I'm in Ireland and really bad now! :-(

Lots of folks hiring in the U.S., especially in hotbeds like Silicon Valley, DC/Baltimore,
and perhaps Research Triangle Park, Redmond, New York City, ...

I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad hiring going on here
for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies for recent
graduates.

You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms, various languages
and major concepts like data mining and logging.

--
Lew

On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:34:02 AM UTC+1, Lew wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:35:00 AM UTC-7, Kevin Doyle wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
>
> >
>
> > I was wondering if there are other guys out there who are a year or twoout of university and still looking for software type jobs? I have a degree and masters in IT and still I find that companies are only hiring experienced guys with 5+ years even though the company advertises for "graduates"!
>
> >
>
> > Where are good countries to get jobs in? I'm in Ireland and really bad now! :-(
>
>
>
> Lots of folks hiring in the U.S., especially in hotbeds like Silicon Valley, DC/Baltimore,
>
> and perhaps Research Triangle Park, Redmond, New York City, ...
>
>
>
> I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad hiring going on here
>
> for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies for recent
>
> graduates.
>
>
>
> You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms, various languages
>
> and major concepts like data mining and logging.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Lew

Thanks for that,
Wow most of those topics are not covered in university training, at least not in the university I attended! Data mining and Algorithms are usually thereserve of a PhD or higher. The Comp Sci education system in the USA must be miles ahead of what we have in Ireland/Europe??
Cheers again,
Kevin.

On 8/15/2012 2:01 PM, Kevin Doyle wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:34:02 AM UTC+1, Lew wrote:
....
>> I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad
>> hiring going on here
>>
>> for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies
>> for recent
>>
>> graduates.
>>
>>
>>
>> You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms,
>> various languages
>>
>> and major concepts like data mining and logging.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Lew
>
> Thanks for that, Wow most of those topics are not covered in
> university training, at least not in the university I attended! Data
> mining and Algorithms are usually the reserve of a PhD or higher. The
> Comp Sci education system in the USA must be miles ahead of what we
> have in Ireland/Europe?? Cheers again, Kevin.
>

I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
around other courses, such as data structures.

It is very important to understand that university education is just a
start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
on a large project.

Have you considered joining an open source project? That can build
practical experience, a portfolio of bugs you have fixed and features
you have implemented, and contacts that may help you find a job, just as
a job would.

Patricia

Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> Kevin Doyle wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
> ...
>
>>> I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad
>>> hiring going on here
>>> for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies
>>> for recent graduates.
>
>>> You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms,
>>> various languages
>>> and major concepts like data mining and logging.

>> Thanks for that, Wow most of those topics are not covered in
>> university training, at least not in the university I attended! Data
>> mining and Algorithms are usually the reserve of a PhD or higher. The

As Patricia suggested, you did likely get some algorithms training if you
took more than one computer programming course. If they taught you how
to search a linked list or a tree, for example, that's algorithms.

Data mining is rather advanced, and I don't mean you have to know that
area specifically. But the competitive edge for new graduates is to know
a little bit more than what they taught you at university. Anyone can
graduate knowing only what they taught you; it takes the better
candidate to extend their learning past that.

Your competition has been studying that stuff, no doubt. They aren't
waiting for a professor to show them the way.

It doesn't have to be data mining as such, but a good familiarity with
databases generally, whether relational like Postgres or key-value
like NoSQL or map-reduce like Hadoop, helps. It's just that the great
majority of programs need a data store, so dealing with data stores
is a fundamental programming skill.

I bought this book, and I don't often buy books due to the plethora
of free information on the 'Net:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Algorithms>

It's the seminal work on the subject.

>> Comp Sci education system in the USA must be miles ahead of what we
>> have in Ireland/Europe??

They teach us to use but one question mark to indicate an interrogative.

Kidding aside, I don't know how the system is in the USA except by
interacting with interns and recent graduates at work.

I certainly don't know how to compare it to that in the UK or Ireland or
the rest of Europe, or anywhere else for that matter.

But I'll bet it's the same here as there - the candidates who get hired
are the ones who do more than the minimum learning at school.

> I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
> first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
> around other courses, such as data structures.

Otherwise they aren't teaching computer science.

> It is very important to understand that university education is just a
> start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
> mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
> on a large project.

It's also true of the myriads of topics I didn't mention.

> Have you considered joining an open source project? That can build
> practical experience, a portfolio of bugs you have fixed and features
> you have implemented, and contacts that may help you find a job, just as
> a job would.

This is in line with doing more than the minimum. Nothing substitutes for
practical experience.

Writing your own programs privately is good, too. I have written several Java
EE programs over the years, for example, that have never left my computer.
But I learned servlets, JPA, configuring application servers (ASes) like Glassfish,
JSP, XHTML/Facelets, and much more on my own by building applications,
sometimes the same one in more than one way to compare frameworks or
idioms.

University, as Patricia says, "is just a start on learning how to learn." You need
to practice on your own just as with any art.

--
Lew

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:17:00 -0700, Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
wrote:

[snip]

>I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
>first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
>around other courses, such as data structures.

In two British Columbian unis, I have seen an algorithms and data
structures course positioned just into second year. First year has
first programming, and the A&D course is a prereq for practically
everything else later.

My alma mater allowed one to do the course later in one's
studies, but it was required to graduate in compsci. One instructor
told me that the course had a high (60%?) failure rate.

It is an important course.

>It is very important to understand that university education is just a
>start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
>mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
>on a large project.

There are projects courses, but even these are not dealing with
big systems IME.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

On Thursday, August 16, 2012 3:08:56 AM UTC+1, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:17:00 -0700, Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> >I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
>
> >first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
>
> >around other courses, such as data structures.
>
>
>
> In two British Columbian unis, I have seen an algorithms and data
>
> structures course positioned just into second year. First year has
>
> first programming, and the A&D course is a prereq for practically
>
> everything else later.
>
>
>
> My alma mater allowed one to do the course later in one's
>
> studies, but it was required to graduate in compsci. One instructor
>
> told me that the course had a high (60%?) failure rate.
>
>
>
> It is an important course.
>
>
>
> >It is very important to understand that university education is just a
>
> >start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
>
> >mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
>
> >on a large project.
>
>
>
> There are projects courses, but even these are not dealing with
>
> big systems IME.
>
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Gene Wirchenko
Thank you for your reply's Lew, Patricia & Gene!
I guess we did cover algorithms in 3rd year of the course. It was just the programming side of it though. I'm following the MIT Open courseWare videos"Intro to Algorithms" http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrica...ideo-lectures/

They cover the theory too, its so much more enjoyable to get a mathematicalanalysis of an algorithm.

I have started two open source projects http://code.google.com/p/preachan/ and
http://code.google.com/p/thales-goal-keeper-radar-sim/

I also have an agile tutorial youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/itgalore


I think they are basic enough at the moment. It takes me a long time to solve problems in my head such has how the architecture should come together, this is due to my lack of experience though. I keep plugging away at them most days but it seems slow; I know a lot but there is so much to learn!

Maybe I will get noticed one the days and get hired! :-)
Cheers
Kevin.