FIG-Forth on CP/M

Hello all,

First, let me say that I am brand new here, and I am looking for some assistance with the (very) old FIG-Forth written for the 8080 microprocessor, and distributed among computer hobbyists in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

I was introduced to Forth at about this time, and I have the first edition "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie. I have played around with Forth from time to time, and I used Forth running on Linux more than a decade ago when I was taking a course on computer languages. So, my experience with Forth in general is light.

At this stage in my life, I can now afford to acquire and play with some ofthe computer systems that were far too expensive for me many years ago. Iam resurrecting an old HP-86B computer with an Auxiliary Processor Module,consisting of a Z80 processor and 64K (!) memory, to run the old CP/M operating system. I also have the HP-9121 dual 3.5 inch floppy drive, with each diskette capable of holding a whopping 270K bytes of information.

So, the computer is running, and I have CP/M running, and I obtained the source file for "fig-FORTH for the 8080 Release 1.1 with Compiler Security and Variable Length Names," dated September 1979. Link: http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/fig-f...080_ver_11.pdf. The source code contains code for interfacing with the CP/M operating system. I have assembled this code on my machine, and I have it running. I get the OK prompt, and I have exercised many of the Forth words, enough to satisfy myself that FIG-Forth is actually running on my machine.

By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to, "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model (from the Installation Manual)..."

Of course, I do not have the referenced Installation Manual. And, after some looking around on the Internet, I have come up with a couple of documents that purport to be an Installation Manual for FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that would be a text editor.

So, at this point I have Forth running, but no screens, and no method to create any screens. I can type in operations in immediate mode just fine. Ican create colon definitions in immediate mode just fine.

I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this, I can seethat Forth is accessing blocks off of my disk drive, starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary, because if I were to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing portions of my diskette which should notbe over-written.

What I think I need is a pointer to some code for a simple text editor (or that original Installation Manual) so that I can get this added into my system. But I certainly need to be able to ensure that any screen that I create with the editor does not over-write any sensitive portions of my diskette.

I hope this treatise of mine has made some sense. I would appreciate any advice, assistance, guidance, or pointers that anyone here may have to offer..

Thanks, in advance,
smp

On 7/9/12 5:49 AM, smp wrote:
> I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this,
> I can see that Forth is accessing blocks off of my disk drive,
> starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary, because if I were
> to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing
> portions of my diskette which should not be over-written.

I'm sorry, I can't help you with a figForth manual, but I can comment
that referencing Block 0 is a special case. The most recent block being
interpreted is kept in the variable BLK, and a value of 0 means
"interpret the keyboard buffer". So any source has to be in other
blocks. In fully native (non-CP/M or DOS) systems, Block 0 may contain
your bootstrap, which is another good reason to stay away from it.

Also, BLOCK returns an address, whereas EMIT expects an ASCII character.
So, 10 BLOCK . might show you an address, and

10 BLOCK 64 TYPE

....might display some text, if any has been put there.

I hope someone here can find your manual!

Cheers,
Elizabeth

--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

smp <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote:

> First, let me say that I am brand new here, and I am looking for
> some assistance with the (very) old FIG-Forth written for the 8080
> microprocessor, and distributed among computer hobbyists in the late
> 1970s and early 1980s.
>
> I was introduced to Forth at about this time, and I have the first
> edition "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie. I have played around with
> Forth from time to time, and I used Forth running on Linux more than
> a decade ago when I was taking a course on computer languages. So,
> my experience with Forth in general is light.
>
> At this stage in my life, I can now afford to acquire and play with
> some of the computer systems that were far too expensive for me many
> years ago. I am resurrecting an old HP-86B computer with an
> Auxiliary Processor Module, consisting of a Z80 processor and 64K
> (!) memory, to run the old CP/M operating system. I also have the
> HP-9121 dual 3.5 inch floppy drive, with each diskette capable of
> holding a whopping 270K bytes of information.
>
> So, the computer is running, and I have CP/M running, and I obtained
> the source file for "fig-FORTH for the 8080 Release 1.1 with
> Compiler Security and Variable Length Names," dated September 1979.
> Link: http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/fig-f...080_ver_11.pdf. The
> source code contains code for interfacing with the CP/M operating
> system. I have assembled this code on my machine, and I have it
> running. I get the OK prompt, and I have exercised many of the
> Forth words, enough to satisfy myself that FIG-Forth is actually
> running on my machine.
>
> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now
> supposed to, "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of
> the fig-FORTH model (from the Installation Manual)..."
>
> Of course, I do not have the referenced Installation Manual. And,
> after some looking around on the Internet, I have come up with a
> couple of documents that purport to be an Installation Manual for
> FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that
> would be a text editor.

I have it on paper, and will scan it if you can't find it on the net.

Andrew.

"smp" <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2-bbd1-d5648e0a8577@googlegroups.com...
....

> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
> (from the Installation Manual)..."

You want figinst.zip:

figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Arch...cs/FIGINST.ZIP

figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip

FIG-Forth Implementations
http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html

HTH,


Rod Pemberton

smp wrote:
> ...
> Of course, I do not have the referenced Installation Manual. And, after some looking around
> on the Internet, I have come up with a couple of documents that purport to be an
> Installation Manual for FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that
> would be a text editor.

The line editor screens begin on page 69
http://forthworks.com/mirrors/tayget...cs/FIGINST.ZIP

> ...
> I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this, I can see that Forth is
> accessing blocks off of my disk drive, starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary,
> because if I were to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing portions
> of my diskette which should not be over-written.
>
> What I think I need is a pointer to some code for a simple text editor (or that original
> Installation Manual) so that I can get this added into my system. But I certainly need to
> be able to ensure that any screen that I create with the editor does not over-write any
> sensitive portions of my diskette.

The original Fig-Forth (and early forths in general) assume it owns the
entire disk. Typically this meant booting forth from rom or CP/M disk and
inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.

BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.

Despite the faster I/O offered by direct disk access, most forthers and
vendors switched to OS based files. One Fig-Forth modified to use
regular CP/M files was
http://forthworks.com/mirrors/tayget...m/forth-nl.lbr

Hello again, all,

Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would have been, back in the early 1980s.

As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie) question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into something that is useful in CP/M?

Thanks again to all!
smp

Ed <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:
> BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
> the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.

If memory serves, the user variable "off" was added to the requested block
number. So on a per-task basis you could hae different views of the same
underlying disk.

--
Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

In article <jtghsl$fq4$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
Rod Pemberton <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> wrote:
>"smp" <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2-bbd1-d5648e0a8577@googlegroups.com...
>...
>
>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>
>You want figinst.zip:
>
>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Arch...cs/FIGINST.ZIP
>
>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip

I would have responded if this documentation were useful to the
OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
editor. We (Dutch Forth Chapter) have distributed zillions of
the complete manuals in print, and have just recently discarded them.

>
>FIG-Forth Implementations
>http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html

This is a better chance.

>
>HTH,
>
>
>Rod Pemberton
>
>


--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c-aabd-a0f38402050d@googlegroups.com>,
smp <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello again, all,
>
>Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
>has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
>and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
>have been, back in the early 1980s.
>
>As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
>question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
>something that is useful in CP/M?

You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
(compressed files)?
You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?

Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G

>
>Thanks again to all!
>smp

Groetjes Albert

--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

In article <m6yoxn.p41@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>,
Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c-aabd-a0f38402050d@googlegroups.com>,
>smp <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hello again, all,
>>
>>Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
>>has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
>>and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
>>have been, back in the early 1980s.
>>
>>As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
>>question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
>>something that is useful in CP/M?
>
>You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
>You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
>(compressed files)?
>You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
>
>Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
>the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
>It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G

Sending is not necessary.
I unpacked it myself with a program called lbrate .

It is indeed my effort, version 1.1F

Question : why is the source split over 3 files of 16k 10k 10k ?

Answer : That was the only way, it could be edited on a 90K
floppy disk of the Osborne.

>
>>
>>Thanks again to all!
>>smp

Have fun.

>
>Groetjes Albert

--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> In article <jtghsl$fq4$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Rod Pemberton <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> wrote:
>>"smp" <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2-bbd1-d5648e0a8577@googlegroups.com...
>>...
>>
>>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>>
>>You want figinst.zip:
>>
>>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Arch...cs/FIGINST.ZIP
>>
>>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
>
> I would have responded if this documentation were useful to the
> OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
> editor.

Sure it does! Have a look. Blocks 87-97.

Andrew.

In article <luKdnWWO6dKTAGHSnZ2dnUVZ8uKdnZ2d@supernews.com> ,
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> In article <jtghsl$fq4$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
>> Rod Pemberton <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> wrote:
>>>"smp" <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2-bbd1-d5648e0a8577@googlegroups.com...
>>>...
>>>
>>>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>>>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>>>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>>>
>>>You want figinst.zip:
>>>
>>>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>>>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Arch...cs/FIGINST.ZIP
>>>
>>>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>>>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
>>
>> I would have responded if this documentation were useful to the
>> OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
>> editor.
>
>Sure it does! Have a look. Blocks 87-97.

I should have snipped the other archives, but really if you're
looking for editor screens in
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
you will be disappointed, I just checked.
(I just didn't OCR those screens).

OTOH the forth-nl.lbr archive contains a nice screen editor
for the Osborne, that I later adapted to IBM-compatible PC's.

>
>Andrew.

Groetjes Albert


--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c-aabd-a0f38402050d@googlegroups.com>,
> smp <stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hello again, all,
> >
> >Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
> >has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
> >and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
> >have been, back in the early 1980s.
> >
> >As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
> >question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
> >something that is useful in CP/M?
>
> You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
> You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
> (compressed files)?
> You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
>

You'll need an unpack/uncompress utility. CP/M has them but I
forget the names (the folks on comp.os.cpm should be able to help).

If you can run MS-DOS (e.g. via DOSBOX) or Win32 then you
want the CFX 1.3 utilily. It will unpack/decompress LBRs in one go.
http://www.z80.eu/cpmcomp.html

> Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
> the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
> It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G
>
> >
> >Thanks again to all!

vandys@vsta.org wrote:
> Ed <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:
> > BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
> > the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
>
> If memory serves, the user variable "off" was added to the requested block
> number. So on a per-task basis you could hae different views of the same
> underlying disk.

That rings a bell. Checking FORTH110.ASM the user variable was called
OFFSET which appears to be set by commands DR0 DR1.

On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:10:26 AM UTC-4, Ed wrote:
>
> You'll need an unpack/uncompress utility. CP/M has them but I
> forget the names (the folks on comp.os.cpm should be able to help).
>
> If you can run MS-DOS (e.g. via DOSBOX) or Win32 then you
> want the CFX 1.3 utilily. It will unpack/decompress LBRs in one go.
> http://www.z80.eu/cpmcomp.html
>

Hi Ed,

Thank you very much for the straightforward answer.

I am a Macintosh kind of guy, but I recently pulled together an "old" PC clone that is running MS-DOS to support transferring things into my HP-86B, so it sounds like the CFX 1.3 utility may be perfect for me.

Thanks a million for the pointer.

smp