Open Source Oracle?

I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for example)
as open source.

Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the MySQL
and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal Linux
distributions these days.

Fat chance, of course.

Just wishing and idly dreaming...

Regards
HJR

"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> writes:

> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for example)
> as open source.
>
> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
> bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the MySQL
> and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal Linux
> distributions these days.
>
> Fat chance, of course.
>
> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
>


I think that the main problem would be with stuff in there that Oracle
has licenced from other companies or licence holder, who would either
be not willing to have there stuff open-sourced, or might not be easliy
traceable. Similar to the situation with NVidia graphic drivers for
Linux,


cheers

Phil

Phil Britton wrote:

> "Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> writes:
>
>> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for
>> example) as open source.
>>
>> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
>> bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the
>> MySQL and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal
>> Linux distributions these days.
>>
>> Fat chance, of course.
>>
>> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
>>
>
>
> I think that the main problem would be with stuff in there that Oracle
> has licenced from other companies or licence holder, who would either
> be not willing to have there stuff open-sourced, or might not be easliy
> traceable. Similar to the situation with NVidia graphic drivers for
> Linux,
>
>
> cheers
>
> Phil

I didn't think very much third party stuff got into Oracle until the dark
days of embedded orbs and God knows what else hit us at 8i.

Even so, an Oracle 8.0 with any and all 3rd party bits missed out is still
likely to be a darn'd site more usable than MySQL, for example.

Regards
HJR

"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> wrote in message
news:41460c28$0$968$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au. ..
| Phil Britton wrote:
|
| > "Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> writes:
| >
| >> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for
| >> example) as open source.
| >>
| >> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
| >> bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the
| >> MySQL and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal
| >> Linux distributions these days.
| >>
| >> Fat chance, of course.
| >>
| >> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
| >>
| >
| >
| > I think that the main problem would be with stuff in there that Oracle
| > has licenced from other companies or licence holder, who would either
| > be not willing to have there stuff open-sourced, or might not be easliy
| > traceable. Similar to the situation with NVidia graphic drivers for
| > Linux,
| >
| >
| > cheers
| >
| > Phil
|
| I didn't think very much third party stuff got into Oracle until the dark
| days of embedded orbs and God knows what else hit us at 8i.
|
| Even so, an Oracle 8.0 with any and all 3rd party bits missed out is still
| likely to be a darn'd site more usable than MySQL, for example.
|
| Regards
| HJR

if i can get oracle 8 open source, why would i buy 9i? 10g? at least for
some apps (maybe a bunch) that would trim the market -- and since oracle is
marketing driven, anything that detracts from that doesn't fly (except out
the window)

++ mcs

"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> wrote in message
news:41460c28$0$968$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au. ..
> Phil Britton wrote:
>
> > "Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> writes:
> >
> >> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for
> >> example) as open source.
> >>
> >> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
> >> bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the
> >> MySQL and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal
> >> Linux distributions these days.
> >>
> >> Fat chance, of course.
> >>
> >> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
> >>
> >
> >
> > I think that the main problem would be with stuff in there that Oracle
> > has licenced from other companies or licence holder, who would either
> > be not willing to have there stuff open-sourced, or might not be easliy
> > traceable. Similar to the situation with NVidia graphic drivers for
> > Linux,
> >
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Phil
>
> I didn't think very much third party stuff got into Oracle until the dark
> days of embedded orbs and God knows what else hit us at 8i.
>
> Even so, an Oracle 8.0 with any and all 3rd party bits missed out is still
> likely to be a darn'd site more usable than MySQL, for example.
>
> Regards
> HJR

Hi Howard, do you actually mean to release the source code, or just freely
distribute it with linux distros for example?

I personally dont see the benefit of releasing the code, lots of benefit in
letting people have it use it for free (obselete versions as you day)

Dave wrote:

>
> "Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> wrote in message
> news:41460c28$0$968$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au. ..
>> Phil Britton wrote:
>>
>> > "Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for
>> >> example) as open source.
>> >>
>> >> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles
>> >> and bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for
>> >> the MySQL and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the
>> >> normal Linux distributions these days.
>> >>
>> >> Fat chance, of course.
>> >>
>> >> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > I think that the main problem would be with stuff in there that Oracle
>> > has licenced from other companies or licence holder, who would either
>> > be not willing to have there stuff open-sourced, or might not be easliy
>> > traceable. Similar to the situation with NVidia graphic drivers for
>> > Linux,
>> >
>> >
>> > cheers
>> >
>> > Phil
>>
>> I didn't think very much third party stuff got into Oracle until the dark
>> days of embedded orbs and God knows what else hit us at 8i.
>>
>> Even so, an Oracle 8.0 with any and all 3rd party bits missed out is
>> still likely to be a darn'd site more usable than MySQL, for example.
>>
>> Regards
>> HJR
>
> Hi Howard, do you actually mean to release the source code, or just freely
> distribute it with linux distros for example?


Well, I'd settle for a freebie no-limits distribution with a linux distro
(in other words, get rid of the licence that says thou shalt not train,
store real data, or earn any money from this software).

But no, I really meant to release the source code. I have a sneaking
suspicion that Oracle is going in directions that many users find
unnecessary (8 Exabytes per tablespace, anyone?). It would be nice if the
open source community got a chance to construct an 'openOracle' that took
things in the direction users actually wanted. A forked version off from
the, say, Oracle 7 base would be worth looking at, I think.

> I personally dont see the benefit of releasing the code, lots of benefit
> in letting people have it use it for free (obselete versions as you day)

That would get me 98.75% of the way to true happiness, as I say. So I
wouldn't complain at all if that was all that was on offer.

Regards
HJR

Mark C. Stock wrote:


> | HJR
>
> if i can get oracle 8 open source, why would i buy 9i? 10g?

Ask the question slightly differently. If I can get a
wordprocessor/spreadsheet/office suite for free, why would I buy Microsoft
Office?

Well, oddly enough, 85%+ of users still do. Because it's slick, it's smooth,
it works (mostly). And everyone else is using it. And (in theory at least)
if anything goes wrong, there's a bloody great software company that will
help me sort it out.

It might help, too, that OpenOffice is not the world's most stable software,
and lacks certain key bits of functionality, for some users (ie, me!) at
least.

So the same would be true for OpenOracle vs. Oracle. If I need RAC, Data
Guard, Workspace Manager or Cross-Platform Transportable Tablespaces, I
would buy Oracle. The mere existence of a free version that lacks these
crucial features wouldn't stop me paying Oracle hard cash,

If all I needed was a multi-versioning, transactional database that did the
basics, OpenOracle would be a good place to start. But, being (let us
imagine) based on Oracle version 7 code, there are a good lot of bugs to
live with, so even then I might feel the need to shell out for the paid
version.

The availability of a free version, in short, does not preclude the
existence of the paid-for version. And whilst Oracle might lose out on the
small-time operators and installations, they might take the opportunity to
enhance their large-scale operations... and charge a (further!) premium for
doing so... so there's money in it for them, too.

Alternatively, consider that little companies which start with freebie
software have a habit of growing up to be big-ish companies that can pay
good money for their software. Wouldn't it be a good idea to "infect" the
minds of these sorts of people in the early, el-cheapo days, and clean up
when the hard cash starts being passed around?

> at least for
> some apps (maybe a bunch) that would trim the market -- and since oracle
> is marketing driven, anything that detracts from that doesn't fly (except
> out the window)

As MS Office v OpenOffice shows, (or Windows v Linux itself, come to that),
open source versus commercial is not a zero sum game.

Yes, it's true that Oracle is market-driven (as I suppose any commercial
company is). But mindshare is important too. They could win a lot of that
by making their obsolete versions freely available.

Regards
HJR


> ++ mcs

Howard J. Rogers wrote on 13.09.2004 23:47:
>
> But no, I really meant to release the source code. I have a sneaking
> suspicion that Oracle is going in directions that many users find
> unnecessary (8 Exabytes per tablespace, anyone?). It would be nice if the
> open source community got a chance to construct an 'openOracle' that took
> things in the direction users actually wanted. A forked version off from
> the, say, Oracle 7 base would be worth looking at, I think.

Hmm. I see FirebirdSQL and PostgreSQL going into an "enterprise" direction
that might well compete with 7/8.0
Both (especially Postgres) seem to include more and more "enterprise"
features and are thus closing the gap to Oracle. I do think that mid-sized
Databases could well be run with any of them. So if you don't get Oracle
for free, why not check out those that are free and offer similar features?

Btw: Sybase just announced that they are giving their Adaptive Server
Enterprise for Linux away for free (http://www.sybase.com/linuxpromo)


Thomas

Howard J. Rogers wrote:

> Dave wrote:
>
>
>>"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> wrote in message
>>news:41460c28$0$968$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>
>>>Phil Britton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for
>>>>>example) as open source.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles
>>>>>and bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for
>>>>>the MySQL and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the
>>>>>normal Linux distributions these days.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fat chance, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just wishing and idly dreaming...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think that the main problem would be with stuff in there that Oracle
>>>>has licenced from other companies or licence holder, who would either
>>>>be not willing to have there stuff open-sourced, or might not be easliy
>>>>traceable. Similar to the situation with NVidia graphic drivers for
>>>>Linux,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>cheers
>>>>
>>>>Phil
>>>
>>>I didn't think very much third party stuff got into Oracle until the dark
>>>days of embedded orbs and God knows what else hit us at 8i.
>>>
>>>Even so, an Oracle 8.0 with any and all 3rd party bits missed out is
>>>still likely to be a darn'd site more usable than MySQL, for example.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>HJR
>>
>>Hi Howard, do you actually mean to release the source code, or just freely
>>distribute it with linux distros for example?
>
>
>
> Well, I'd settle for a freebie no-limits distribution with a linux distro
> (in other words, get rid of the licence that says thou shalt not train,
> store real data, or earn any money from this software).
>
> But no, I really meant to release the source code. I have a sneaking
> suspicion that Oracle is going in directions that many users find
> unnecessary (8 Exabytes per tablespace, anyone?). It would be nice if the
> open source community got a chance to construct an 'openOracle' that took
> things in the direction users actually wanted. A forked version off from
> the, say, Oracle 7 base would be worth looking at, I think.
>
>
>>I personally dont see the benefit of releasing the code, lots of benefit
>>in letting people have it use it for free (obselete versions as you day)
>
>
> That would get me 98.75% of the way to true happiness, as I say. So I
> wouldn't complain at all if that was all that was on offer.
>
> Regards
> HJR
>
>
>
An interesting idea no doubt, but I think chances are about as likely as
the proverbial snowflake in ....

I'm thinking how many web pages that are currently using 9i and paying
big $$$ in license fees that could *probably* run ok on a "free" 8.0 or
even 7.x and don't need all the bells & whistles you get now.

I'm in the midst of designing a web page for someone I know with a Hotel
business, and I can see that in the not-to-distant future if it grows
much and they want online booking features etc.. it will need a database
of some sorts in the back end, so it'll be time to learn MYSQL or
something of the sort, anything but the detestable MSAccess. An old
version of oracle would suffice quite nicely for what I have in mind,
but the dollars involved would make it out of the question.

cheers

Glen A Stromquist wrote:

>
> I'm in the midst of designing a web page for someone I know with a Hotel
> business, and I can see that in the not-to-distant future if it grows
> much and they want online booking features etc.. it will need a database
> of some sorts in the back end, so it'll be time to learn MYSQL or
> something of the sort, anything but the detestable MSAccess.Â*Â*AnÂ*old
> version of oracle would suffice quite nicely for what I have in mind,
> but the dollars involved would make it out of the question.

Precisely, Glen. That sentence "An old version of oracle would suffice for
what I have in mind" is the essence of the matter. Now why should Oracle
give that functionality to you for free? Because one day you will want a
feature that only its latest and greatest products will provide -but by
then, you're a hooked Oracle-phile.

I've been spending a bit of time in the Suse newsgroup lately (as I think
you might be aware!), and MySQL has a big mindshare there. I've even been
tempted to have a look myself.

If you believe that Microsoft is a fool to ignore the threat/challenge that
Linux poses (as I do believe), then it would be equally foolish of Oracle
to allow MySQL to reign unchallenged in the 'proper but cheap' database
market.

Of course it won't happen (I think I said that in my first post). But I
honestly can't see why not, nor what Oracle has to lose in the matter.

Regards
HJR

Glen A Stromquist wrote:
<snip>

> An old version of oracle would suffice quite nicely for what I have in mind,
> but the dollars involved would make it out of the question.
>
Take a closer look at Postgresql then. It's new version has a ton of new
features, and it has much the same feel as Oracle's dbs. Admittedly, I
haven't used v.8 of PG yet (just released the other day), but the 7x
version is pretty good.

Thomas Kellerer wrote:

> Howard J. Rogers wrote on 13.09.2004 23:47:
>>
>> But no, I really meant to release the source code. I have a sneaking
>> suspicion that Oracle is going in directions that many users find
>> unnecessary (8 Exabytes per tablespace, anyone?). It would be nice if the
>> open source community got a chance to construct an 'openOracle' that took
>> things in the direction users actually wanted. A forked version off from
>> the, say, Oracle 7 base would be worth looking at, I think.
>
> Hmm. I see FirebirdSQL and PostgreSQL going into an "enterprise" direction
> that might well compete with 7/8.0
> Both (especially Postgres) seem to include more and more "enterprise"
> features and are thus closing the gap to Oracle.

I don't think this discussion can be meaningful unless we qualify precisely
what such features are. Then we can have a parallel debate on what we think
"enterprise" really means. And hopefully we can then make sense of the
claims and counterclaims.

But the problem (for me, at least) lies exactly in what you've written:
Postgres is closing the gap to Oracle by adding these "enterprise
features", whatever they might be. Re-phrase that slightly: Oracle is an
Enterprise-class product and others want a share of that market. Now follow
through on the (slightly-stretched) logical corollary: Oracle is not
(particularly) interested in the low and mid-end database market.

And that's my point. By giving the ancient versions away, they *would* be a
player in those lesser markets, where MySQL and Postgres already largely
reign unchallenged.

> I do think that mid-sized
> Databases could well be run with any of them. So if you don't get Oracle
> for free, why not check out those that are free and offer similar
> features?

I'm not checking anything out, because I'm an Oracle boy. Trouble is,
there'll be a lot of people who will do precisely what you suggest, and
become a PostgreSQL boy or a MySQL boy. Oracle then loses out, long-term.

> Btw: Sybase just announced that they are giving their Adaptive Server
> Enterprise for Linux away for free (http://www.sybase.com/linuxpromo)

I didn't know that. So thanks for the tip.

Regards
HJR

>
>
> Thomas

"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr@dizwell.com> wrote in message
news:41461901$0$20580$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
<snip just for brevity>
Yes, this would be awesome! It would be a great coo over MS, IBM, etc.
Jim

Howard J. Rogers wrote:

> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for example)
> as open source.
>
> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
> bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the MySQL
> and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal Linux
> distributions these days.
>
> Fat chance, of course.
>
> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
>
> Regards
> HJR

No doubt Microsoft and others would love to get their hands on the
source code. All that effort put into getting MVCC into Yukon and
they could just steal it.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

Daniel Morgan wrote:

> Howard J. Rogers wrote:
>
>> I wish Oracle Corp. would release obsolete versions (7 and 8.0, for
>> example) as open source.
>>
>> Just because those versions don't have Java, XML and other whistles and
>> bells, it doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine replacement for the
>> MySQL and Postgress stuff that usually gets included in all the normal
>> Linux distributions these days.
>>
>> Fat chance, of course.
>>
>> Just wishing and idly dreaming...
>>
>> Regards
>> HJR
>
> No doubt Microsoft and others would love to get their hands on the
> source code. All that effort put into getting MVCC into Yukon and
> they could just steal it.

Nothing a GPL won't fix: if you use this source code, your product (to use
MS terminology) is now "infected" by the GPL, and you cannot sell it
without also making it open source. MS wouldn't touch it with the
proverbial barge pole.

Besides, as you point out: MS *is* putting that sort of stuff into their
product, so there's less loss in Oracle being open about how they did 15
years ago. They might be giving away "trade secrets", but they're
secrets nobody really wants to see any more because they've independently
acquired the technology.

I can understand not wanting to release the source to sexy new-ish things
like RAC, Data Guard, ASM, ADDM and the rest of the alphabet soup. But in
my fantasy land, that is not required.

But if it really is a problem, then just a free binary download of -say-
version 7 unencumbered by most license restrictions would be very nice.
Bundle it up with all the major Linux distros, even nicer.

Regards
HJR